Who is Red John

Hi, Mentalist Fans --

Here's a difficult challenge for us all. I HATE the idea that Reede Smith might be Red John, but I keep coming back to him as the very least likely RJ candidate I can imagine (espeically from the list of 7, assuming it's real). So, instead of debunking the possibility of Smith being RJ, can anyone make a compelling case in favor of him being RJ?

Otherwise, I'm hard pressed to come up with any reason why he'd be on a suspect list by PJ or RJ. Yeah, I know he's brutal and credible as a Tiger Tiger member. But all the Tiger Tiger members aren't on the list (the driver of the van when Kirkland was killed, for instance). Even if he is just a Tiger Tiger member (not RJ), it would seem he'd have to be in the upper echelon. He certainly seemed to be giving Bertram rather sharp orders in the meeting of Bertram, McAllister, and Smith.

Again, IS there a reasonable case to be made for Smith being RJ? And if not, why the hell is he on the list?

Thanks for your thoughts.

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Theory #7303 • By EmH00

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If forced to go with the list of 7, Bret Stiles is the only one with the charisma to attract even one follower, much less multiple followers willing to die for him. Others have made good arguments for various people not on the list of 7--such as Ellis Mars (Theory #7265 • By Sesshofz), Mashburn, etc.

My interest is in PJ's back story and what happens after RJ is caught/killed. This might be an interesting scenario:

o Homeland Security suspects the existence of widespread, organized corruption within California law-enforcement agencies -- the state FBI office, the CBI, and even local PD's. HS is interested because, aside from the crimes that might be committed or covered up, corrupt law-enforcement agencies are susceptible to being blackmailed or co-opted by domestic and international enemies of the US.

o Red John is a local serial killer either with no connection to the corrupt law enforcement people, or, who split from that group.

o PJ's extraordinary intelligence was identified when he was in foster care by Carson Springs Child Protective Services in his youth. The CIA (or similar sister agency) has programs to systematically identify and recruit young people with extraordinary potential, and trolls for such youths (similar to Talman Bunting's recruitment of math geniuses for national security computer work). Assume PJ is recruited as a teenager.

o PJ's cover occupation is a "psychic" entertainer, arising from his carny background. This affords him freedom to travel and set his own schedule, allowing him work for HS without it being obvious.

o Angela and Charlotte Jane are PJ's family. Both are killed in a car crash. HS (now the overarching organization which includes the CIA, FBI, NSA, etc.) sees this as a unique opportunity to establish PJ as a mole within the CBI. HS persuades PJ to use his family's death as a way of investigating corruption in CA law-enforcement--a way of salvaging something positive out of his personal tragedy. HS has PJ make insulting on-air comments about RJ and then fakes the RJ murders of Angela and Charlotte. This creates the excuse for PJ to want to work for CBI to pursue RJ.

o As part of the effort to establish his cover story for the investigation, PJ agrees to being hypnotized to block memories of his HS connection and to believe RJ murdered his family. The FBI is suspicious nonetheless. Robert Kirkland of HS intervenes to have Alexa Shultz of the California FBI office arrange reports on the CBI RJ case (and therefore on PJ) to quell the FBI's suspicions. Kirkland also has his own motives for catching RJ and hopes PJ helps with this as well as uncovering the suspected law-enforcement corruption.

o PJ tricks his way into the CBI. As a CBI consultant, PJ is nicely positioned to observe and investigate the CBI and other California law-enforcement organizations. He:
- is dismissed and underestimated as an amateur by actual agents and cops
- spends a lot of unstructured, unsupervised time at CBI by sleeping there (practically living there) with the excuse of insomnia and the need for CBI "white noise"
- has access to all levels of the CBI and frequent contact with the California FBI and local PD's
- doesn't have to keep a regular work schedule
- has his RJ hunt to explain investigating all sorts of things without raising suspicion
- is monitored by the FBI and HS via Minelli's agreement with Alexa Shultz of the FBI, thus obviating other FBI monitoring, and, allowing HS to keep tabs on what the FBI (thinks it) knows about PJ and his RJ investigation

o RJ didn't kill PJ's family, but comes to enjoy the cat-and-mouse with a worthy opponent. RJ realizes PJ's true objective is to uncover law-enforcement corruption--the Tyger Tyger group--which is somehow a threat to RJ. RJ thus occasionally helps/protects PJ.

o The RJ-PJ-Tyger Tyger connections become more complicated when PJ actually makes progress in identifying and catching RJ

o HS loses control of the situation because of Sophie Miller's death (she's the link to PJ's unadulterated memories) and Robert Kirkland's personal vendetta against RJ. PJ is now uncoupled from HS and any recollection of the car accident which killed his family. So far as PJ knows, RJ did indeed kill his family and the quest for vengeance is real and deserved.

The future holds PJ fulfilling his quest to get RJ. Realizing PJ has learned far too much, the Tyger Tyger group targets PJ. Assuming members of Lisbon's unit are hurt/killed by Tyger Tyger, PJ decided to pursue Tyger Tyger as a worthy objective now that he's eliminated RJ.

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Regarding the 7 suspects, I feel we know far less than we have been led to believe and think we know. I have always had major problems imagining any of the 7 as RJ--none of them is a credible RJ! I also continue to have problems believing J would so easily reveal his true list to anyone. If J really believed knowing the list would put someone in danger, I think he never would have told Lisbon regardless what she wanted. J could not survive another murder equivalent to the murder of his family. --By now, he has known Lisbon and the others nearly as long as he was married to Angela. Further, the CBI team has saved each others' lives--not just your ordinary workplace relationships! So, Mr. Heller has his work cut out for him if RJ will be one of the 7 suspects revealed at the end of S5/S6E1.

Further, the method by which J came up with the 7 final names seems both fallible and very atypical for him--a brute-force approach. The whole thing hinges on Lorelei's statement, "It's a wonder the two of you didn't become lifelong friends the moment you shook hands!" That was the basis for the 3 criteria stated in the episodes:

#1. J and RJ shook hands
#2. They shook hands AFTER J's family was murdered
#3. RJ must be someone who could have been at all of the RJ murders

Re. #1: This directly hinges on the truthfulness of Lorelei's statement. (I think) J made the point that Lorelei said it in a heated conversation rather than a calm, thoughtful moment. It seems reasonable the statement is true. But note how LITTLE it actually excludes. J and RJ could have become friends later. J and RJ could have shaken hands many times. They could have shaken hands at any time--before the murder of J's family, or, indeed, before RJ became RJ (started murdering!).

Re. #2: Assuming J shook hands with RJ AFTER J's family was murdered is plausible, but not necessary logically. This opens up the possibility of the J-RJ connection extending back to J's early days. The person who became RJ could have known and disliked J before J's family was murdered. J's TV comments then could have triggered the murder of his family. Or, someone like Sean Barlow could have had a grudge against Alex Jane and taken revenge by attacking J and his family. (Remember Judge Dellinger's point: "If you want to hurt a man, don't kill him. Kill his family.") A Sean Barlow could easily have predicted that, as a psychic, J would work with police and comment on notorious murderers for the credibility and free publicity. Either the murderer might attack J or his family, or, Barlow could have them murdered in the RJ style, certain that the serial killer would be blamed. Finally, J could have known RJ before RJ became a murderer and shaken his hand then. Shaking hands need not have anything to do with RJ killing J's family.

Re. #3: It is an assumption that RJ personally committed all of his murders. But what if he had a follower commit some murders in his style? Then the whole methodology falls apart. Further, there have been several cases of copycat RJ murders. J would have to identify the actual RJ murders with 100% accuracy.

Further, it isn't credible that J wouldn't use everything at his disposal to whittle down a list of 2,000+ people. He already admitted to eliminating women. What about other characteristics? Disability: Could RJ be blind, rely on a wheelchair, or be weakened by disease (e.g., advanced MS, for instance)? What about age--too young, too old? And how does the Red Barn RJ-style murders change that criterion? Would a famous face (e.g., TV star, important politician) eliminate someone from being RJ because he would be too identifiable?

Finally, I think the fans who have tried to use physical descriptions are on a fool's errand. First is the question of whether all physical descriptions are of the same RJ person (vs. RJ and one or more disciples). I put no faith in Rosalind Harker's description. She is blind (we believe), but the bigger concern is whether she can be trusted, being that she's in love with Roy Tagliaferro. Anyhow, physical characteristics are subject to change, especially over a long period (12+ years since the Orville Tanner RJ murder). A person can gain/lose a lot of weight, and become much more or much less physically fit. People may bald with age and balding people can use ointments to stimulate new hair growth. Hair can be cut, straightened or curled. People may go from a middle-aged appearance to definitely old over a 12 year period. People can be ambidextrous. How someone smells can change based on where they are currently living and what they are doing (construction project vs. city job). Callused hands can become soft if you stop doing heavy physical work. And people may even lose height with age (shrinking an inch is fairly common). In short, I think the physical characteristics must be used very gingerly if at all. Gender and significant differences in height--several inches, for instance--may be useful, but the rest is questionable.

Taking the J character as presented for the past 5 years, as presented, the list of suspects and methodology are both highly suspect. If I had my druthers, Walter Mashburn would be an excellent RJ (worst part of it is I liked Mashburn--horrible thought!). If I am FORCED to choose among the list of 7 suspects, it would be either Bret Stiles-plus-son/protege OR Sheriff McAllister.

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Question rather than theory: In S6E2, the nurse/doctor who stepped into Lisbon's hospital room looking for Carmen Lee caught Jane's attention in a way that seemed to be more than just an interruption. After leaving Lisbon's room Jane immediately called to talk with Sophie Miller and later told Lisbon that the hospitals/doctors spurred the idea. Others have speculated that saying "Carmen Lee" triggered a post-hyponotic suggestion for Jane. That would certainly help ensure that Jane was the one to discover Sophie Miler's decapitated head in the oven.

My question concerns the broader implications of a possible post-hypnotic suggestion. If Jane was hypnotized while he was committed to the insane asylum, who did it and for what purposes? I seems unlikely to be Sophie Miller or part of genuine therapy. Jane appears to conclude that Sophie Miller was killed by Red John, implying that Red John (personally or through a proxy) had access to Jane while he was in the asylum. That opens the doors for all sorts of complications. In having access to Jane -- when Jane was uniquely vulnerable and without his knowledge -- what would Red John have wanted to accomplish? Some obvious possibilities:

o Having Jane sabotage his own hunt for Red John?

o Planting various post-hypnotic suggestions that could be useful to Red John in the future if Jane gets to close to catching him?

o Help Red John accomplish his criminal goals that go beyond just murdering women occasionally (although remember Jane's point made during the "Russet Potatoes" episode, that a hypnotized person cannot be forced to do something against his nature)?

o Help Red John fight his competitors/opponents (e.g., Tyger Tyger organization)?

o Other?

It is also interesting to remember that both the FBI and Homeland Security were aware of Jane's commitment to the asylum. Were they also aware of/responsible for any nefarious misuse of Jane while there? What if the battle field between Jane, Red John, FBI, Homeland, and Tyger Tyger actually started while Jane was in the asylum, with Jane as a would-be pawn of all these forces?

I don't know where to go with this, but "Carmen Lee" could be more than a mistaken room number while Lisbon was hospitalized!

Ideas welcome.

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Something new (sorry...). This is more about how things developed rather than who Red John is. I strongly want Red John's connection to Jane to go back to Jane's early days. Such a connection would be more powerful drama than merely a serial killer annoyed by critical on-air comments by a minor entertainer 10 years ago.

What is Bret Stiles's back story, where did he come from? Jane calls him just a con man. If so, did he know Alex Jane -- maybe not a carny, but a con man acquaintance in the fluid world of non-violent criminality. Both Stiles and Alex Jane would be in their mid-to-late 20's before Patrick Jane was born (40-plus years earlier).

What if, with his ample charisma, Bret Stiles seduced Alex Jane's wife and is the biological father of Patrick Jane? (Yes, this could be soap-opera lurid, but not necessarily. Bear with me.) Stiles would have no interest in actually raising a child, so I could see him content to let Alex be the putative father. If Alex knew or suspected Stiles was the father, Alex might have little love for Patrick and could readily exploit him in the show, especially once his wife/Patrick's mother was out of the picture. (BTW, Patrick Jane seems unusally sensitive to people ill with cancer and is afraid of doctors and pain. Did his mother die young of cancer? I assume he had a positive relationship with his mother or he could have grown up to be a socio/psychopath if neither parent provided love or nurturing.) As Patrick's intelligence and talent became apparent, Alex might come to see even more of Bret Stiles in his putative son, resenting him even more.

Meanwhile, Bret Stiles is founding and growing the Visualize organization. Assume a seriously disturbed young adult (late teens, early 20's) joins Visualize--Ray Haffner, Brett Partridge?--25 years ago. Visualize straightens him out to be functional (off drugs and alcohol). Intelligent and talented, he becomes a protege of Bret Stiles, but Stiles can't eliminate his darker impulses. (This would also work if Red John were another illegitimate son of Bret Stiles, but that would be way too many coincidences for any reasonable plot.)

The protege becomes Red John and first murdered at the Red Barn, perhaps triggered by drugs (speed) and sleep deprivation. The Visualize farming attempt fails and the protege -- now off the speed and no longer sleep deprived -- pursues a career in law enforcement and crime as a crooked cop (remember Orville Tanner was a criminal as well as participating in the first recent Red John murder). This could account for the 10+ year break in Red John-style murders. Something -- don't know what --would then have triggered him to resume murdering.

This helps explain the following:
o Jane is gifted with extraordinary intelligence and talents as Stiles's biological son, despite Alex Jane's mediocrity.
o Knowing his paternity, Bret Stiles has affection for Patrick Jane which increases as Stiles recognizes similarities in Jane. Stiles makes strangely personal commets to Jane in several episodes.
o Stiles knows who Red John is and disapproves of the murders -- especially murders for the sake of killing (vs. for practical reasons such as eliminating a competitor, etc.). But, having had a role in creating Red John, Stiles protects him to protect himself and Visualize. It is possible Stiles occasionally uses Red John to murder to further Stiles's Visualize interests, too.
o Initially, Stiles protects Jane from Red John's worst impulses.
o Once Red John learns of Jane's link to Stiles, there is a tangled mix of jealousy and affection, especially as Red John develops a fondness for the cat-and-mouse game with a worthy opponent. Red John ends up displacing his anger over the on-air comments by murdering Jane's family instead of Jane himself. Ultimately, Red John has equal parts resentment and love for Jane (Heller's duality theme) and both torments Jane and protects him. Jane is thus uniquely able to hunt Red John without immediately being killed by him. Ultimately, Red John appreciates the irony of hurting Jane far more by keeping Jane alive than he would had he killed him, and, benefitting from the entertaining game between them.

Finally, this sets up the possibility of salvation for Jane. It would mitigate Jane's guilt if Red John had his own reasons for killing Jane's family. I think the Tyger Tyger law-enforcement organization is a competitor and threat to Visualize. I hope and assume the law-enforcement corruption and Visualize provide the new long story arcs once Red John is wrapped up. (Like others, I will be disappointed unless Red John is one person who can properly be the focus of Jane's revenge. That doesn't rule out a group of Red John friends, but there must be one Red John heading it.)

This doesn't advance the "who is Red John" question, but it's fun to speculate. BTW, I know others have already floated the idea that Red John is the son or protege of Bret Stiles. I'm not trying to take credit for others' ideas.

Thanks for reading this. Comments -- pro or con -- welcome.

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Digression!

Just a thought: I very much appreciate all the people who take the time to post their ideas and share my interest in this show. But please! For all who are not native English speakers, please do NOT apologize for any flaws in your English!

I speak only English and am very much in debt to those to bother to learn the language and grapple with its many quirks. I tutor English to US students and -- having borrowed from so many other languages -- it is horribly inconsistent. Alas, many people for whom English is their first language have problems with it.

Thank you, thank you for sharing your ideas. The ideas are what's important!

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The RJ case has to be more complicated than a lone psychopath with loyal followers. The notion that a psychopath is going to have numerous companion psychopaths or even just willing followers who are willing to die for him seems far-fetched. Also, it would be trite for ALL the law enforcement agencies -- Homeland Security, the FBI, the CBI, and even local PD's -- to be widely evil, corrupt, and incompetent except! for Lisbon's virtuous, heroic group. (A major purpose of internal affairs departments is to root out corruption within those agencies, no?)

So, despite Mr. Heller's misdirection and focus on the RJ identity, the more interesting question centers on the motivation and involvement of the other major characters and organizations. Here are some possibilities.

o OPERATION TO NAIL VISUALIZE - What if Homeland Security, the FBI, the CBI, and even local PD's are pursuing RJ, who is closely connected to Visualize? Visualize has numerous supporters within law enforcement so the agencies would have to run a top secret operation. Hence, Bertram and Kirkland appear to be conspiring against J's hunt for RJ, but they are trying to protect a legitimate investigation. J's 6-mo. absence from CBI while he was in Las Vegas plus his involvement with Lorelei would give them reason to wonder whether J had been co-opted and might help RJ. (If Bertram and Kirkland were RJ supporters themselves, why would they ever wonder if they could "trust" Lisbon, as presented in S5E16 "There Will Be Blood"? Knowing Lisbon is close to J, they could reasonably wonder about trusting Lisbon when they had doubts about J.) The seemingly shady, conspiratorial behavior of Bertram, Kirkland, and Smith would then make sense for legitimate reasons, rather than just as pawns of RJ. RJ would then likely be Haffner because of the Visualize membership.

o RED JOHN IS ONE NODE OF A LARGER INVESTIGATION - Another possibility is that RJ is just one node of a much larger legitimate investigation by Homeland Security and the FBI. I'm intrigued by the international reach of Visualize and RJ. Remember that Montero, friend of Todd Johnson and RJ, did gun running to Central and South America (S3E16, "The Red Queen"). Sean Barlow (S5E22, "Red John's Rules") was a compelling character from PJ's carnival days. As mentioned by Pete Turner (PJ's carny friend), Barlow maintains connections in Ireland. Barlow is old enough to have been involved with the IRA (Irish Republican Army). Although the IRA is politically disbanded, the network that used to fund it supposedly is still active in crime and had/has links to other terrorist organizations (FARC in Colombia, the Basque ETA, Libya when under Quadafi, and the former PLO). Kirkland could have killed Jason Lennon (S5E18, "Behind The Red Curtain") because he was a covert agent who had been "turned" by RJ (per Kirkland, Lennon had become a "plaything of monsters") and needed to be eliminated to protect the larger investigation. (BTW, Lennon seemed aware that Kirkland was about to kill him but did not cry out or object. That suggests that Lennon accepted Kirkland's judgment that Lennon would spend the rest of his life in prison and, perhaps, that being killed was an easier and even just consequence.) The conspiratorial behavior of Bertram, Kirkland, and Smith again would make sense for legitimate reasons.

o PERSONAL CONNECTION BETWEEN J AND RJ - Finally, having J's involvement with RJ go back to J's carnival days, to his past, would make for much more powerful drama. RJ's obsession and special treatment of J seems far more personal than just a reaction to J's on-air comments about RJ from 10 years ago. Again, I was intrigued with the Sean Barlow character. According to J's carny friend Pete, Sean Barlow cultivates grudges, would not hesitate to kill his niece, and is "a sinister piece of work -- mean and clever" (S5E22 "Red John's Rules"). According to J, Sean Barlow was close friends with J's father till they became enemies (S5E22). Wouldn't it be interesting if Barlow pursued revenge against Alex Jane by attacking his family--J? The S5E5 "Red Dawn" episode in which Judge Dellinger says, "If you want to hurt a man, don't kill him. Kill his family" establishes that perspective on revenge. IF Sean Barlow pursued revenge against Alex/Patrick Jane, AND if RJ were an agent/friend of Barlow, AND if Barlow and RJ were also involved with international criminal/terrorist organizations, THEN there would be reason for the interest and involvement of Federal law enforcement/security agencies in what is seemingly a local serial killer. The various parties would also have cause to wonder about J's allegiances. J would be connected to Sean Barlow, known to be involved with criminal/terrorist organizations and a former business partner of J's father Alex. That could even explain Kirkland's initial warning to Minelli (via Alexa Shultz) about J when he was first hired by CBI (S5E5 "Red Dawn"). True, J's family was killed by RJ, but then RJ's mistress Lorelei became J's lover. An outsider could have cause to wonder about J.

IMHO these scenarios are more interesting than a local psychopathic serial killer annoyed by an entertainer's on-air insulting comments ten years ago.

Thansk for reading this.

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